Steven Wright: If God is Nothing, the Creator of all Somethings, there isn't an issue.
Catrin Campean: If god is nothing. Nothing cant be the cause for something. so
Steven Wright: Just going by the title of Lawrence Krauss's book. You have a problem with him?
Catrin Campean: No. Why would you think that?
Steven Wright: You said nothing can't be the cause of something. Read the book title.
Catrin Campean: I have. And I stand by my statement. What L. Craws referees to nothing is different from what I say when I say nothing.
Steven Wright: Nothing is nothing. You're saying he's right that you're wrong.
Catrin Campean: NO. I say that he is talking about something else. Its not the nothing I am referring to. Its a different nothing. The real nothing.. the thing that cant be defined the thing that does not act or react or influence or gets affected by something. The non reactive non exitance the absence of things.
Steven Wright: It doesn't act? It didn't produce the universe? Explain.
Catrin Campean: Nothing ..IS.. the part that IS .. has to be something.. and there is the problem.. nothing cant be. The second nothing IS.. it becomes something.. So.. if things that cant be cant be the cause of things that are.. they have to be in order to create events.. they have to be able to interact to create effects.. they have to obey causality .. etc,,,
Steven Wright: For nothing to become something would be an act. You said thus nothing doesn't act.
Catrin Campean: Exactly so nothing cant be the cause of things
Steven Wright: You just said it did. It became a something.
Catrin Campean: When we try to explain what nothing is.. we create it .. we give some caracteristics and that makes it become something... Nothing cant be defined.
Steven Wright: that's only semantics. Concepts are not the actualization of the concepts.
Catrin Campean: No.. its logic not semantics.
Steven Wright: Nothing cannot be defined is true. Talking about it isn't defining it, it's only referring to it. If I say there are no apples, no apples didn't become something.
Catrin Campean: True.. and we can talk about nothing. But nothing does not have characteristics. It does not react or create or do anything. Its the concept of absence of all things.. and that cant act or react or create.. its just shows lack of things
Steven Wright: That's a contradiction of your statement that it becomes something.
Catrin Campean: Since we are talking.. we talk of somethings.. in this case a concept we call nothing.. so that is something. It became something when we try to talk about it.. Its the nature of language and words.. they mean things
Steven Wright: Well, when I speak of things, I speak of something that is actualized in our three dimensional reality, not an idea left in the potential state.
Catrin Campean: Cool.. you talk of things.... nothing is not in the group of things you and L Craws are talking about.
Steven Wright: I disagree.
Catrin Campean: Because..?
Steven Wright: Because I don't see my view being any different.
Catrin Campean: Look harder.
Steven Wright: No need. That was your claim that if you speak of some non-existing phenomena that it all of a sudden becomes a thing (Odin, in your example).
Catrin Campean: Well. Than we are done talking. Claims that are not substantiated I discard them and your refusal to explain yourself makes a dialogue mute.
Steven Wright: We're done because you contradicted yourself? That's your choice.
Catrin Campean: I offered a chance to show me.. You just said you disagree and refused to explain yourself when I asked. Its not me who decides its done. Its your inability to explain your actions.
Steven Wright: I say nothing produces something. L.K. says that nothing produces the universe. It's up to you to prove I have a different view.
Catrin Campean: Not how the burden of proof works. The one that makes the claim has the burden. You say nothing does something. Show it..
Steven Wright: I can state my opinion. I have to prove that I agree with my opinion? Are you absurd?
Catrin Campean: Opinions you don't have to prove.. But its also irrelevant to anyone else. But you said..:"I say nothing produces something. L.K. says that nothing produces the universe. It's up to you to prove I have a different view." that is not stated.. in my opinion....
Steven Wright: We'll have to agree to disagree.
Catrin Campean: NO. We don't have to. Its clear.
Steven Wright: Is your ego really that hungry?
Catrin Campean: What does this have to do with ego? Things are clear there is no confusion. You said some things than changed meanings mid dialogue to its my opinion. I see no such term before that. So its clear as day. No disagreement. No need to agree on a disagreement.
Steven Wright: You saying that things are clear doesn't make it so. You haven't shown that to be the case. If that is the case, I invite someone other than you to post it.
Catrin Campean: In your own words you said you are talking about things.. i am not .. i am referring to the lack of any things.. so we do not talk on the same subject.
Steven Wright: Nothing became something that isn't a thing? Your own words stated nothing became a thing.
Catrin Campean: I just explained it. The fact that you don't understand the explanation. Simple as it is. Its on you.
Steven Wright: contradictions have no way to be understood. You're asking me to make mud clean.
Catrin Campean: Yes.. and that is clear as day.. things that are something have attributes.. the second we said nothing is ... it made into the group of things.. it is no longer the absence of all things.. is something. But.. the thing we are talking about that is the absence of all things.. cant create or afect any other things so it cant be the cause of things or the universe..So.. where is the confusion?
Steven Wright: I never made the claim that it can affect other things.
Catrin Campean: So how can it be the thing that made a universe if it does not affect things?? universe is made of things.
Steven Wright: You said it became it. I agree with that.
Catrin Campean: So. How come nothing is the cause for the universe?? If it does not affect things.
Steven Wright: The non-physical can't move the physical. Once the idea is manifested, it's on its own.
Catrin Campean: Ideas are not affecting physical things.
Steven Wright: I didn't say that either.
Catrin Campean: so.. idea of the nothing cant be the cause for the universe.. right?
Steven Wright: right. But the idea comes before the becoming. Tell us why the electron has those particular values for mass, spin and charge.
Catrin Campean: So we agree than. Nothing cant be the cause to things.
Steven Wright: If nothing is 'not' the cause of the electron's specific definitions, what is the cause?
Catrin Campean: I don't know why electrons act the way they do.
Steven Wright: I never said anything about their behavior.
Catrin Campean: I dont know why the electron has those particular values for mass, spin and charge.-- is that better? What ever the answer is. Its not nothing. I can assure you. Its something.
Steven Wright: That bewilderment should be looked at more closely. Do all atheists agree that there's a mysterious something that gave an electron its specific definitions?
Catrin Campean: I agree. We don't know so lets look for the answer.
Steven Wright: Happy hunting.
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